In topic: "Powerscaling - Homestuck/MSPA"

Monday, August 11th, 2025, 0:38 AM28 days ago

@JakeMorph It's mostly about things like Occam's Razor or accounting for stuff like No Limits Fallacies. As someone who by their own admission doesn't really understand powerscaling I'll probably just take the time to explain both of those things.

Occam's Razor, in powerscaling communities, is mostly the idea of "if a power is used on screen, the simpliest explanation for that power is usually the correct one. More out there assumptions are typically used for highballing (or taking the highest interpretation of that character possible) or lowballing (the least generous assertion possible) a character". You probably already know what it is normally tho, so I won't bother to explain it.

No Limits Fallacy or "NLF" is basically the idea of there being no stated limit to something NOT meaning that there literally is no limit, for example, let's say a character has the ability to absorb energy. Just because on screen they are NEVER shown to be overclocked or something like that does NOT mean there is no limit to that power/they can absorb infinite energy. Typically, when powerscaling the "limit" we ascertain for a character is based on JUST the extent of feats they show in a moment. Speculation on them scaling higher would not be based on feats and would require stuff like chainscaling (aka powerscaling based on how strong they are in comparison to another character) or scaling off of solid lore or statements from the author (like if an author or guidebook or something says an attack can vaporize an entire town, we assume the attack can possibly do so, even if on screen the feat is less impressive.)

What you're doing kinda breaks both of those conventions. Both the claim of DD or Jack possibly being able to use the Red Miles to destroy bigger and stronger things before the 4th prototyping or possibly how Jack needs the Green Miles to reach that level of power. It's basically trying to powerscale off of hypothetical ideas rather than anything concrete. Which is fine, outside of the actual context of powerscaling. But that's not really... the point of what this is meant to be! Powerscaling is meant to be an analysis and taking in what the story shows us and the author presents for the characters and how strong they are shown to be. It takes into account both the authors intent but also paradoxically uses DOTA to go beyond it. It empirically takes into account the physical strength of the characters but also their mentality, skill, mindset whatever (though those last bits really only matter in vs matchups. Scaling by itself is really just quantifying how strong the character is shown to be.)

For the example of DD and Jack on the Battlefield and on Prospit... I understand your assertion of their motivations, but at the same time that line of logic ("DD only wanted to destroy part of Derse to quell Dirk's rebellion/Jack only wanted to destroy part of the Battlefield/Prospit") doesn't. really mean anything in the context of quantifying how strong the characters are. That really wouldn't DOWNSCALE Bec Noir, a character we see blatantly destroying a GALAXY/UNIVERSE/MULTIVERSE ON SCREEN (seriously that is like the most blatant "this is how strong this guy is" you can get), and would rather "upscale" DD and Jackspers as "possibly higher" in powerscaling terms. But the logic used to downscale Bec is shaky, it's really just "but they COULD be stronger and COULD have the same power as Bec Noir in that moment!" which really isn't a concrete argument for powerscaling when the simpler answer is... the ring, like the Underlings that are also powered up by prototypings, got stronger, and thus the attack that originates from the ring, also got stronger.

To your second point of reducing Homestuck to a "universe", no, that is not what is being done. This is simply really a misunderstanding in terms. A Genesis Frog is not the same as a "universe", it was explicitly explained in a way that actively acknowledges it as a multiversal structure due to it containing pretty much every iteration of itself. And Homestuck scaling in general takes the steps to acknowledge the heirarchal structure of stuff like the Horrorterrors or the Furthest Ring and what the descriptions of the text actually MEAN in terms of scaling and it being a story. The Genesis Frog as it exists as a living breathing organism is something that contains An Entire Universe, and every iteration of it. Being able to destroy it in it's entirety, even over TIME is a multiversal feat. And yes, Jack destroyed it in it's entirety. This is distinct from Spades feat of shooting and killing Snowman, since her link to the universe via her life is different from what a Genesis Frog is. A Genesis Frog IS the universe. Just straight up. Every iteration of it. However, the thing with Snowman is she's more like... Kami and Piccolo. When one dies, so does the other. Although, if you want to argue she IS literally the universe as well. then. Spades just also "scales" to that, although not really since it was the single bullet from the gun he threw away. But also he already does scale to Multiversal in the end anyway because of Collide but that's an entire other can of worms :P

Anyways I recommend visiting http://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Homestuck for more information on. HOW scaling Homestuck works, some of the common arguments, etc. Pages like https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Jack_Noir_(Beta) https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Spades_Slick or https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Bilious_Slick get into some of the specific gripes you have.

Oh, and stuff like "hax" vs "AP" or stuff like that are things you would want to get into to actively understand powerscaling better. For instance, Snowman's life link to the Trolls Universe would be a hax ability, and thus Spades Slick shooting and killing her wouldn't technically be a Multiversal feat, while Bec Noir, on screen and very actively destroying a Genesis Frog, something that is multiple times shown and described as a multiversal structure WOULD scale him to this level.

Any more questions are appreciated I Love Powerscaling

Mocha