ironic detachment with homestuck enjoyment

i joined the fandom in 2017 and i've always seen these types of people around along with the usual outsiders who haven't read the comic but decide to hate it because that's what everyone else says they should be doing. they actively made me feel bad (indirectly, mind you) about liking homestuck and i still have residual Shame about enjoying it sincerely for the entire time i've known it. i always have to brace myself for impact when a more popular youtuber/internet personality i follow comments on or reads homestuck as a twitch sub goal or something. because they're either incredibly misinformed or their fans won't be normal about it. and don't get me started about all the online spaces that ban discussion of homestuck outright. makes me feel like i'm not wanted (i know i shouldn't be taking it personally but it's a lot sometimes)

I mean, I know homestuck fans who haven’t even read homestuck…

there’s all kinds of fans and non-fans out there. Homestuck just seems to have a lot of this phenomenon because it’s so long and different throughouT. the histori reputation of its fans doesn’t help either.

I'd like to say "yeah I'm a homestuck fan", and that'd probably be accurate and something I'd say to someone I didn't really know, but I do squirm a bit when I say it.

Moreso because it feels like I'm lying for some reason. I love the characters, ideas, and most importantly the potential homestuck has in it, but I dislike the rest for the most part. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to live life on the other side, not being so grumpy and opinionated, because it sounds really nice.

I guess it's like the saying goes, the thing you love most is the thing you're most critical of. So people like me in the camp of being cagey about whether they even think homestuck is any good, probably like it the most in secret.

When it comes to being a homestuck fan, you can always check out, but you can never leave.

I've noticed this and it really drives me up the god damn wall.

The whole debacle around the Sarah Z video aside (I'm not really going to weigh in on any of that), I found myself rolling my eyes trying to watch it for the first time the other day because she just would not stop doing the whole 'woahhhh, it's so inscrutable, what is homestuck even ABOUT?!!?!'

Not even to single her out. It's a common sentiment online, about how the Homestuck fanbase is uniquely toxic or weird, or how the comic is uniquely cuhraaaazy.

I know some of it is tongue-in-cheek, but I think it gives people the wrong impression when trying to get into the series.

I'm going to go on a short tangent here, to describe a similar feeling and its resolution in my life.

I had a complicated relation with the Biohazard/Resident Evil franchise for most of my life, being incredibly attracted to its base concepts and atmosphere - I love disaster science fiction and body horror so much - yet being perpetually disappointed by the various ways in which the worldbuilding and continuity are developed. The games themselves are fine, for the most part, but I had a PROBLEM with the storytelling. It's all so incredibly, mindblowingly stupid. The plots and subplots have all the depth and appropriateness of someone claiming they can fly and then charging right in a wall head-first. Not only is the move ill-advised, the move doesn't even seem related to what the person was apparently trying to prove.

I LOVED the potential and soul of the series, but I HATED its concrete development.

It all changed when I came to revise two major facets in my approach:

1 - I renounced any hope Resident Evil was ever going to have high quality (or even quality) stories. I mean, it's been decades. If these games were ever going to do a good job at storytelling and worldbuilding, it would be done by now.

2 - I rethought my entire approach to art. I now refuse to consider things in terms of "formal quality".

To talk a little more about point #2. When you think about it, "formal quality" is a narrow, wanting measure of human imagination and creativity. Furthermore, it uselessly hierarchizes stuff and helps in (useless, again) attacks of various works. I prefer to focus on more interesting things: the intent, the themes, the influences, the art direction of a work, the concepts it develops or fails to develop, the genealogy of ideas, the historical context, the implications of the worldbuilding, as well as the various qualities.

To obsess over a work for its potential while being constantly caustic about what it concretely is... It all seems quite unhealthy. There are more positive and constructive things to do with our lives, with our thoughts, with our words.

And when one really CANNOT let go of the frustration before what they perceive as unaccomplished/sabotaged potential... Well, such feelings and energy can be channeled into original art or fanworks rather than becoming endless chafing and bitching.

At some point, you have to consider the CURRENT reality of the subject of your interest, rather than the HOPES you have in them. Respect works of art and respect your own time: if you are too discontent with the works, learn to accept them as they are, or drift away and forget about them.

RE: Oasis_Nadrama

i totally agree. the FNAF thing i brought up as the cause for this thought was super similar- i myself dont dislike or feel slighted by the recent FNAF media whatsoever. i have always enjoyed it, and very likely always will. HOWEVER that sentiment is not shared by the majority of people in the FNAF fandom, and yet... they stick around! there are those who feel as though FNAF hasnt been good or enjoyable since the third entry- and that was a decade ago! a real life decade! and yet those fans stick around in the hopes that maybe one day theyll enjoy it again. they never will, though, because theyll never be ten years old again, right? thats how nostalgia gets you, and how the love for POTENTIAL can warp your love for the real thing. why stick around if you hate it? why stick around if its only bitterness that remains?

i want to echo this sentiment i saw on bluesky about the homestuck animated pilot, and all of the discourse surrounding it, because i feel as though it illustrates my entire idea with this concept and thread very very well:

also very wonderful thoughts from all of you!!! again, i have no particular conclusion or strict opinion on this matter, so hearing all of your different perspectives on this is really valuable. homestuck is uniquely a very difficult thing to enjoy. i hope all of you, no matter how you enjoy it, are having a good time!

Oasis put in words what I was thinking perfectly - the most joyful fandoms are those who enjoy the art for what it is. I'm an Utena obsessive, and very few people even know that Utena got a sequel manga in 2019 and... its different! It's obvious that Saito has changed since 1997, and her interpretations of the characters show that. And that's interesting to talk about! The same with Homestuck. It's doing different things now and I'm here cos I love talking about these things. Also for the Psycholonials agenda

We grow up in a culture that drowns people in guilt and shame over the smallest deviation from the norm. I grew up just at the very point where anime fans and video game nerds were reaching critical mass of non-isolation, but what would come to be semi-affectionately known as 'weebs' were still widely rejected and seen as fringe weirdos by most.

Homestuck came up in an era where these anime conventions were at a historical peak of interest and its most visible adherents were nerdy teenagers. The story goes out of its way to not be user-friendly. So I think that relegated a lot of people to non-understanding and Homestuck fandom was seen as this embarrassing thing and those who were influenced by the opinions of others had to sort of learn how to disavow it even while praising it.

I'm not at all immune to trying to downplay my interests with irony, but I don't do that with Homestuck anymore. I have a very idiosyncratic opinion on Homestuck. I love Acts 1-7, the maligned Act 6 is my favorite act, I love Hiveswap. I have serious issues with postcanon but no issues discussing it or engaging it or *respecting that feel differently from me on it.*

I think that might be the key difference. I try to treat my interests as expressions that come from a specifically "me" type of context, but a lot of people treat their opinions as a way of projecting an image of themselves to others, defining themselves by a certain opinion set, developing a disdainful attitude toward those who see differently, and treating everything with a sort of ironic contrarianism, like even their opinions aren't really their own opinions but rather something molded self consciously in opposition to 'Rosemary shippers being too cringey' or 'Davekat being too popular' or whatever. Needless to say, this seems like a limiting way to engage with art.

assuming this is a response to the interaction I had last night and like, yeah, it does really piss me off when people especially in spaces dedicated to Homestuck are so dismissive and petty about it

im fairly certain ive given this story before on this forum but here we go:

Im in freshman year of college, checking out the clubs and activities. Oh cool theres a cosplay club and it says they have machines to use! great bc I couldnt bring mine with me. I go to their first like intro meeting thing and we all sit in a circle and talk about past + future cosplays and our general interests yaknow that kind of thing. I just BEGIN to talk about my past homestuck cosplays and the president of the damn club cuts me off and does this whole dramatic thing about how I dont have to talk about it and it was a painful time for everyone and all that kinda bs and I have to cut her off to say "oh no I'm still into homestuck I plan to do more cosplays for it in the future" and you could cut the awkwardness and tension with a knife.

interestingly enough the club did fall apart bc of lack of organization. so it goes

also also I did snap at a couple other ppl while I was there for similar things including -i shit you not- argued with a roomie over the epilogues because I read them in full and enjoyed them I am still pro-epilogue. And they did not read them but was ""told"" what happened and it was all the usual bs ppl were spewing during that time right after they dropped. (on the brighter side in one of the classrooms there was a wipe-off board that was rarely used and I did a goofy little homestuck back-n-forth with someone who will forever be a mystery. And then someone kept erasing JUST the homestuck corner and nothing else so. fuck us two i guess)

also theres so many cynical people in fantroll groups like. just expressing you enjoy homestuck gets you weirdly singled out and if you like the post-canon content? forget it. vibes forever ruined. Its like yall are making ocs and rping and speculating/extrapolating on lore but Homestuck is bad for reasons x y z and what do you mean you ACTUALLY like that thing? Its so tiresome. the "homestuck fans that hate homestuck" are a group of ppl i just can not gel with. Extreme incompatibility

I think being embarrassed about the things you like is more embarrassing than anything else.

It's called irony-poisoning cuz irony is poison. And we all do it on some level. I know I do it sometimes. Still, no amount of "cringe" I ever felt reading any part of Homestuck (and boy. There are some parts I do avert my eyes from) even slightly compares to the idea of pretending I don't get genuine enjoyment from it becuz... Becuz... Um...

Why again?

i've loved homestuck for half my life and i'll do so for the rest of it i think

it's good to love things and to be open about that love. people will always hate what you love and that you love, but you just gotta keep doing it. if the thing you love has issues, of course you should be critical of that, but people will bring up issues in literally anything that has ever existed as reason why you should move on from it. you will never find something uncontroversial to love, because loving truly and deeply is an inherently violent act against many of the systems of the world. and violence, when it's the right kind of violence, is sick as fuck

For me, I sometimes act like I'm almost, embarrassed about liking homestuck, is because a lot of the communities about the series i've seen, seems to despise everything in the comic, and a lot of my favorite parts are a ton of peoples least favorite (I love act 6, I love the ending) and I am afraid that if i say how much i love and enjoy the series with 100% sincerity, i'll be ridiculed or considered a bad person or that i have bad taste.

RE: the1woomy

awaa that makes me so sad to hear :( see how upsetting and strange that is? making YOU feel ashamed for loving the thing that they are creating spaces around? why are THEY even there, then? THEY should feel ashamed for focusing on being so negative all the time in spaces they are creating FOR FANS. YOU should not feel ashamed for unabashedly loving something- and if people are making you feel ashamed in a certain space, its time to leave that space and find another. <3

this is why this is the only homestuck community space im in. it feels like if you mention anything that isnt act 5 anywhere else a bunch of random people will barge in to make sure everybody knows they hate that part and its like why are you even here if you hate homestuck so much. im glad all of you here are so much nicer

the story based on my personal observation is that it has a lot to do with Homestuck fandom being intrinsically tied up in Tumblr and the culture of Tumblr - or rather, the fact that the fandom used to be tied up in Tumblr culture and isn't, anymore.

there was a stretch of some years not so long ago where Homestuck was "irredeemable media", and though it may be hard for some to believe it now there was also a stretch of time where quite a lot of people took the concept of "irredeemable media" quite a bit seriously. I don't think it's an embellishment to say this did a number on a large swathe of Homestuck's legacy audience, and this mass exodus of ""Woke Homestucks"" (to phrase things clumsily) left a huge cultural vacuum to be filled when Homestuck started being relevant to people's lives again. unfortunately for everyone, I think, the culture that filled this vacuum came from basically the one other remaining bastion of Homestuck appreciators, and that last bastion happened to be Reddit.

I don't believe I'm being unfair to say Reddit is the kind of place where it's a commonly held opinion that Homestuck started sucking during Act 6 because the author lost track of what Really Matters to the Real Fans, which is Sburb nonsense and jokes about the disabled, and started caring about Bullshit For Gaylords, like character development and commentary on the nature of storytelling (this obviously sounds and IS interesting as hell, but if you want to make it sound boring you can always call it "meta stuff" instead. works every time). now, I'm not saying everyone who holds Homestuck at arm's length when they talk about it, today, shares this exact philosophy or these exact opinions; I'm just saying they're part of a certain culture. when the people who are influencing you think that if they don't like part of a story it must be because during the process of writing it the author made some identifiable Fatal Mistake, it's easy to start seeing EVERYTHING as a matter of Fatal Mistakes and Fatal Flaws, and to lose sight of the fact that in the real world these are just regular fucking nuances that different people are going to have different opinions on. when turning the story or its author into the targets of ridicule becomes a necessary part of your critique, it starts to colour the way you see the whole thing. you didn't just personally dislike the Epilogues because they weren't to your taste: they were Bad, because the Author made an Active Choice For Them To Be Bad. you didn't merely disagree with some of the plot developments in hs2: they were Bad Developments resulting from the decisions made by Less-Than-Ideal Creatives.

and when the quality of something falls outside of the domain of your personal opinion, then your personal opinion stops being enough to justify your own enjoyment of it. you can't just Like Homestuck; your regard for Homestuck has to be a discursive presentation, balanced on both sides, complete with annotations and citations and footnotes. I Like Homestuck But - or worse: I Don't Like Homestuck But. you gotta maintain detachment because the alternative is attachment and if you're attached to something that's Objectively Flawed then you will be escorted roughly but quietly and punctually from the garden of eden by surly angels in sunglasses and dark suits

oh my god every post here is worded so well!

i experience this a LOT talking to other homestucks my age. so many of them have SO MANY negative things to say about everything. it's like to be considered a good, moral homestuck fan on tiktok or whatever, you have to constantly say "well i don't like THAT part..." but what if i do like that part?? it's so weird.

RE:@jakemorph

Splendid analysis tbh, very well put.

This is prolly going to be terribly written but whatever. I also want to bring up one particular imgur album I saw shared around reddit A LOT (that tbh made me laugh every time I reread it). It was a post detailing how the ending (and act 6 in general) was bad because it "broke storytelling rules". I think a lot of criticism of homestuck that comes from these sorts of fans falls under what I dub "fascist art critique", which might seem over the top but its more the underlying ideas behind a lot of critique I see for the late stages of homestuck. It is the idea that there are inherently "correct" and "wrong" ways to write stories, that everything needs to fit into little boxes and appeal to as many people as possible. If an art piece invokes emotions that aren't positive it is deemed as a failure, you see this a lot with the epilogues. For a lot of people it isn't enough to simply proclaim "I don't like this" they need to label it as morally wrong or objectively bad (or degenerate, go research the degenerate art exhibition). When homestuck calls into question the very story telling structures that are the norm, they see it as failure, a mistake that shpuldn't have been made instead of wondering if they should expand their definitions. I think it is very telling the reddit is one of the biggest pushers of this idea given how uhh, bigotted it can be, though as Jakemorph mentioned more progressive spaces also tend to fall into this line of thinking, just for different "moral" reasons. (I also think the fact I mainly see this sort of "cringe" treatment of a piece of media happening almost exclusively to queer media telling as well, steven universe being another fandom I used to be in that gets similar treatment) One of the most important things anyone can do is break free of these pretenses of how a story should be, or that a story can be an inherently bad thing. When you treat something as irreedamable media it becomes very easy to fall into these thinking patterns when you enjoy it where you need to justify yourself by putting down the art "objectively" or say you are engaging with it "ironically".