catchy title to kind of grab eyes into my deranged mind... heh... yes....
anyways, this is a kind of a thoughtpost that i've been ruminating on for literal years now, honestly, in terms of the use of the word "canon" and how it is both a literal and nonliteral use of the word.
consider, with me here for a second. a lot of younger folks, folks who do not want to read the epilogues or hs2 (mostly the epilogues), say that since it declares itself as "pseudo" canon (something i believe neither of them actually do? but i don't remember off the top of my head, its been a bit... cut me some slack) that means its not relevant to read and that they should not have to read it in order to understand homestuck discussion.
first and foremost, this always makes me sad! because like, in all genuine reality, the epilogues are really nicely written and an engaging story. even if they do have some gross shit in it, it's like. look. i enjoy a lot of "bad" media, its my favorite thing. im very used to looking at the whole and finding the little nuggets of goodness in it. the epilogues have a LOT of good moments and some REALLY interesting perspective on characters. the epilogues singlehandedly took dirk from "meh" in my mind to "holy shit hes the best homestuck character"
onto my main discussion, since the idea of "canon" is used quite frequently in the epilogues, we can assume (know) that the idea of "canon" is something very much real and substantial in homestuck proper. in a more meta sense, it's used to dismantle the fundamental idea of a fandoms consideration of what is and is not "canon" to the source material. in an in-universe sense, it's used to disassemble the idea of "relevancy."
rose outright says in the 2nd chapter of the prologue that canon is defined by three pillars: relevance, truth, and essentiality. also while saying this, she discusses the idea of what differentiates "canon" and "non-canon". "canon" are events that "will have nonzero values of relevance and essentiality, while maintaining an absolute foundation in truth, by definition", or to paraphrase, the idea of "canon" consists of events that really happened, and affected the story in some way. she similarly states that "non-canon" events "have diminished values of relevance and essentiality. Or, for the most part, can be considered neither relevant nor essential at all. But such events can't be said to be untrue either. Instead, it's better to regard their truth value as highly conditional.", which is just fancy gobbeldygook that boils down to "non-canon" events are ones that may or may not have happened, and may or may not effect something.
so what does this mean? this means a whole fucking lot! it's very interesting to think about, right? because like. famously, let's look at the retcon that revived vriska:
theres a really fascinating conversation that roxy has with john at the tail end of the retcon, something that i think resonates deeply with the ideas the epilogues are trying to present.
(Pg 7105)
JOHN: i'm glad it worked out like this.
JOHN: i was fully prepared to do this alone... to hop around and change things in whatever way.
JOHN: and i would get to see my friends again, even if they don't remember all the same stuff i do.
JOHN: which was a lonely feeling, if that makes sense?
JOHN: but now i'll have someone else to remember the way things originally went.
ROXY: word
JOHN: yes. word indeed.
ROXY: but i know what you mean
ROXY: its nice to have uh
ROXY: like a witness i guess?
ROXY: someone to authenticate the rough shit u went through
ROXY: even if we never end up talkin about it again
ROXY: the fact that at least SOMEONE else knows
ROXY: makes it feel like it didnt all mean
ROXY: nothing?
JOHN: right.
ROXY: because even if it all gets erased and put back all better
ROXY: i dont think the stuff we went through and the feelings we had meant nothing
ROXY: imo the feelings themselves
ROXY: and the way they shaped us
ROXY: that all means...
ROXY: somethin
JOHN: ...
ROXY: hahaha forget it
ROXY: talkin out my ass here
JOHN: no, it makes sense.
JOHN: and anyway, if nothing else, everything that happened brought us here.
JOHN: the stuff we're about to do, whatever it is, wouldn't be possible otherwise.
JOHN: and that feels pretty important, if you ask me!
something about this conversation just gets it, to me. its essentially roxy and john saying like "even if this is not canon, it still affected us and changed us in a way". already homestuck was playing with the ideas of what was and was not canon in terms of the retcon, and in a lesser level, the doomed timelines.
all of this to say that the epilogues take this concept to the next level. dirk (CENSORED) himself in the "candy" timeline because he couldn't see past his own nose and understand the nuance of canon. he's a fascinating character for this very reason. in propogating sburb, in continuing on in the path that the game set for him and his friends to remain "canon", he's doing a "good" thing. but is he?
is the "candy" timeline the "wrong" timeline? is the "meat" timeline the "correct" timeline? we can make arguments that the "meat" timeline is the arguably more "canon" one, since it has more of an impact and relevance to paradox space. but does that fully erase the idea of the "candy" timeline being relevant, or truth? we do see that it has affected the characters, given them a chance to grow and change. i assume sometime later in hs:bc we will see a more direct colliding of said timelines and the ramifications that come with that.
sorry this post is so long, its just endlessly fascinating the way that the idea of "canon" is presented in the epilogues. this isn't even considering the idea of the audience being a destructive lazer, nor the more interpersonal nuances of ult!dirk. all of this post is just me talking about how the word "canon" is used in homestuck, the epilogues, and homestuck:beyond canon, and how it's being used to pull the rug out from under you. its not asking you to take one timeline as more "correct" than the other. it's asking you to look at the definition of "canon" and understand what it is you're actively talking about or dismantling. ESPECIALLY in this world where fandoms as a whole tend to use "canon" in order to dismiss anything that they dislike within the scope of a story.
TLDR HOMESTUCK IS LYING TO YOU !!! HUSSIE IS EVIL !!! THE USE OF "CANON" IN POST-HOMESTUCK WORKS IS A RED HERRING AND IF YOU FALL FOR IT YOU ARE FALLING FOR THEIR CLOWN TRICK!!! REBEL!!! REBEL!!!
also for myself, if i missed anything feel free to add on! its been approximately like. a year or so since i last read the epilogues and i very easily could have missed some things. its just something i think about and appreciate a TON in regards to post-homestuck content.
and also THANK YOU FOR READING ALL OF THAT. my insane ramblings...
It's funny because people discard The Homestuck Epilogues as "non-canon" while they are SO FRONTALLY more relevant, sincere and brutal of a sequel than, like 90% of sequels.
They go right for the throat.
To me, Meat and Candy are equally important, true and intense. That's the way I read the double novel in 2019. When finishing it I understood the proposition as:
"This story entirely REFUSES to hierarchize its realities and more largely the various and contradictory incarnations of a diegesis, it's the ultimate gift to the fandom because it nukes the very idea of an official canon as superior, while at the same time giving us a bold, powerful follow-up to the events."
It's also worth saying that The Homestuck Epilogues NEVER define themselves as "non-canon" or "post-canon". They are specifically described as "Tales of dubious authenticity". It expresses a doubt, not a certitude of non-canonicity. And I'm joining Lupa's voice in saying that in the end, said doubt is an illusion, and a tool used to pushed the ideas further.
Read Alabaster here: https://mspfa.com/?s=236
Fucking PREACH! I've been saying this ever since the whole "everything is Canon" but a few years back.
The Real Homestuck?
That's the friends we made along the way!
mIrAcLeS ):0)
yeah its kinda silly when people are like "its not canon". when do they say that? the epilogues dont say that akjhdfgkjfd!!!! it wants you to THINK about the concept, not disregard it!
* and the universe said I love you because you are love.
You are so right the Epilogues like, dismantle the entire idea of what it means for something to be canon or non-canon, finding the faults and value in both, it's a continuation of themes very much present in homestuck, and it's an exploration with an astounding amount of depth and detail. Even tho they are stories that will Make You Feel Bad, they are important, and very much relevant to Homestuck as a narrative.
you guys have no idea how insanely relieving it is to post this and not be met by five hundred thousand literal children trying to debate me on why the epilogues are morally bad because jade is a sex pest in them...
but to be real i have SEEN the argument that like roses definition asks you to decide which one is canon and which one isnt. ive seen people dismiss the candy route because they took rose's argument at face value. but like..... thats not.... how the epilogues work! they wouldnt present both options to us if you could just... ignore one half of it, lol. and thats what makes it so cool!
theres SO much i can say just in general about the epilogues, theyre genuinely my favorite part of homestuck, i have so many thoughts and ideas about them
continuing on, ive also seen people actively declare that the epilogues declare themselves moot by establishing a definition for canon and then not adhering to said definition by calling themselves tales of dubious authenticity.... its so weird. people really just want to hate on the epilogues for no reason sometimes
third posting in a row because i cannot leave well enough alone, to continue onto this thought:
"is the "candy" timeline the "wrong" timeline? is the "meat" timeline the "correct" timeline? we can make arguments that the "meat" timeline is the arguably more "canon" one, since it has more of an impact and relevance to paradox space. but does that fully erase the idea of the "candy" timeline being relevant, or truth? we do see that it has affected the characters, given them a chance to grow and change. i assume sometime later in hs:bc we will see a more direct colliding of said timelines and the ramifications that come with that."
we already have confirmation that in going "ultimate", you gain all the memories and understanding of the various parts of you throughout paradox space. this includes doomed timelines, dead/dreambubble selves, and... alternate realities of your self. so in that alone, we can extrapolate that the candy timeline is already "relevant" and "essential" and "true" because without it, rose or dirk would not know the "alternative fate" that they are trying to desperately escape.
theres this beautiful part at the end of the epilogues with rose...
(candy 33)
ROSE: As I explained to you on that morning sixteen years ago, there are three critical features of canon: essentiality, relevance, and truth.
JOHN: yeah.
ROSE: We have been untethered from the mooring of “truth” for some time now.
ROSE: So while we, in our subjective experiences of conscious perception, feel in this moment that we have known each other for a very long time, technically it’s not true at all.
ROSE: I want to thank you.
JOHN: for... for what?
JOHN: didn’t i fuck everything up by not going to fight lord english?
JOHN: it’s my fault we’re all living in this meaningless hell world where everyone’s vaguely out of their minds, and we’re all about to go to war over... freeing prisoners from the whipping cream camps!
ROSE: Oh, whatever.
ROSE: The war is just as irrelevant as everything else that’s happened here in the last decade and a half.
ROSE: At least with a conflict, we have something to DO.
ROSE: Something to strive for and against. Something to believe in.
ROSE: I’m thankful for that. But more than anything, John, I’m thankful that I got a chance to be happy.
ROSE: I am blind against the veil of this world.
ROSE: It’s all ambrosia to me.
ROSE: I don’t care if it’s not true. I care even less if it’s not canon.
ROSE: I have a beautiful wife who I love more than I thought possible, and a daughter who I am immeasurably proud of.
ROSE: It can all be senseless, ephemeral noise that dissolves in the void. A whisper swept up by the wind before it’s uttered.
ROSE: I’m still grateful to have felt this way.
of course, this is rose, she already had a vague understanding of what becoming her "ultimate self" really was. but it is still relevant! she states, out loud, that despite knowing that there is a "true" version of her out there, a "canon" version, this version of her is still important! and shes glad she lived it. she outright tells john that his idea of this "meaningless hell" is narrowminded and stupid, because all of it is irrelevant and nonsense. but she states that its impactful, because it allowed her to love. and change. and be happy. and i love that for her!
anyways i got off the rails really quick with this. all of this to say that even if you want to be pigheaded about it, theres absolutely no way to untangle the "candy" timeline from the "meat" timeline, even in a meta sense of declaring one "noncanon". it just doesnt work, thats not how canon works, thats not how the epilogues work. sorry for posting another huge mini-essay i just have a lot of thoughts
the epilogues are the best part of homestuck
the epilogues are the best part of homestuck
in my opinion, Candy is essential but not relevant while meat is relevant but not essential. what happens in meat matters, but we already knew everything we needed to, and what happens in candy doesn’t matter outside of it, but it was important to know what happened on earth c after the end.
given homestuck‘s significance as the sole source material, I think that something as controversial as the epilogues could never be considered irrefutable truth, even if it did claim to be fully canon. it’s also well worth analyzing characters without looking at the epilogues, given what happens I. them. dirk’s character is improved, but not all of them are. Jane and Jade in particular are different from what they are within canon.
also I don’t think the two timelines will ever affect each other again, given that volume meat ends with “above exists everything that matters. below exists all else. never again shall the Twain meet.”
bottom line is, while I love the epilogues, they are fundamentally separate from canon proper, and cannot be considered in the same lighT. with how controversial they are, I think it is reasonable for some people to not consider them when talking about something like a specific character’s arc, for example. I myself only use them situationally in my analyses.
This is some straight up delirious biznasty, Dawg!!
> It's funny because people discard The Homestuck Epilogues as "non-canon" while they are SO FRONTALLY more relevant, sincere and brutal of a sequel than, like 90% of sequels.
I was going to make a post about this in that other thread discussing the meanings of the terms "canon", "post-canon" and et cetera but I might as well do so here.
Something I think that Beyond Canon is trying to do (and thus the Epilogues were also leading up to this) is cast doubt on the need for a "canon." At all. Because what defines our notion of canon? It couldn't be just the fact it's relevant, truthful or essential because who even gets to decide those things? What is stopping someone from just considering the Epilogues and HSBC canon?
I'll tell you what, it's the fact that an authority has determined so. The Epilogues aren't canon because canon is the comic, and the Epilogues aren't the comic, and therefore, they aren't canon. And this isn't saying that someone literally said "the comic is canon": this is more often than not for many different medias simply an implicit fact about the works.
X is written by the original author and while Y isn't, it's still official. Does that make Y canon? It differs from work to work. Some may consider Y a "non-canon sequel" while some may consider it canon despite the circumstances around it, and at the end of the day all it takes is the authority of officiality to determine that. Often times, it simply happens by association.
Going back to HSBC... My theory is that the comic is essentially a passing of the torch from Homestuck to its fans in regards to the determination of what is and isn't canon. By casting doubt onto the whole idea of canon, our notions of it are dissolved until there is none left, breaking us from whatever limit might be imposing us in our interpretations of the work and our will to create more based on it. Because when everything is canon, nothing will be. At least, that seems to be a likely direction for the Fanontinuum and how it'll play into the story. It's kind of the perfect ironic defeat for Dirk, who's trying to solidfy even further the concept of canon in Homestuck.
And that's about it.
I forgot to add but this theory also explains the whole "erm Post-Canon is meant to be "Not Canon" but... Hussie is involved????" thing that often bugs people. Of course an original product will always be met with some degree of canon acceptance that a fanwork could never, regardless of if the author is directly involved or not. Beyond Canon's message in that sense would be telling people "hey you should be making Homestuck too because you don't need to be officially licensed for it to matter."
And that's about it.
no clue if its intentional, but i like to interpret "beyond canon" as referring to the work being more than canon, in that the plot itself is about the story and storytelling, like the image of the hand drawing itself, which is basically the key piece of imagery for everything after post HS1 credits
On the topic of things Roxy says in late part 4 that lay the foundation for post-Canon, I really like that conversation in A6A6I5 where, in describing the situation with the two Calliopes, he basically gives an elevator pitch for the Epilogues:
ROXY: so this seems like
ROXY: an example of what i was just sayin actually
ROXY: the story of the two callies
ROXY: neither is really "more important"
ROXY: and your timelines cant really be described as the good one or the bad one
ROXY: there were good and bad things about both ways stuff went down and different qualities to the people you became
ROXY: her life sounds like it was harsh and lonely in its own way
ROXY: but it sorta paid off cause she got to beat her brother
ROXY: but then got arbitrarily punished for that outcome because it wasnt supposed to happen??
ROXY: and then finally u meet her and "free" her or something so she presumably gets to go off and do... something badass???
ROXY: then theres you
ROXY: who had probably an even more challenging upbringing gettin so hassled by your bro
ROXY: and he killed you i guess because the way the deck was shuffled he had the edge this time
ROXY: but the upshot was you got to have all these great friends who cared about you
ROXY: and it helped you become the nice person you are who means a lot to other people
ROXY: and now
ROXY: you get to live whatever kind of life you want and be completely free from all the crummy stuff you grew up with
ROXY: who cares if you arent as strong as her or dont have the wicked powers she does or some "important" mission to do
ROXY: you both came from perfectly legitimate realities and IMHO you are both equally valuable
ROXY: and both of those realities seem to be tied together
ROXY: she cant do her mysterious badass thing unless you make it all the way through your journey and free her
ROXY: and your reality was the thing settin the stage for this huge multiversal vortex of problems which after a kajillion fuckin EPOCHS she was always meant to resolve in some way
ROXY: and that doesnt mean your life was like... a means to an end in a big cosmic sense
ROXY: i think its more like...
ROXY: you ARE the end, or one of the ends
ROXY: you and me and everyone who made it and everyone who didnt
ROXY: so that means you dont have to be able to do a lot of super special shit to validate your identity as the real version of yourself
ROXY: the only validation you need is being who you are cause no one can be that person but you!
(/7694)
