Homestuck Feels like it has a Discomfort With Achillean Romance and Characters.

I don't think that's too wild an idea to have, considering there are plenty of times when the comic just straight up makes fun of shippers and fandom shipping culture as a whole. There are a lot of jokes made at the expense of people who enjoy shipping the characters together, and it just happens that some of these jokes were at the expense of those who enjoyed specific pairings. Yes, there are plenty of decent and good relationships and romantic arcs in Homestuck, but that does not really negate the point of my post, which is that the portrayal of a specific group of people isn't the best because they're stuck being commentary for fandom instead of just being in an actual relationship. There are a lot of good points made in OP's post, which is that we don't actually get to see or read any of the resolutions or conversations these guys had with each other that led to their problems and issues; we're instead just kind of told about it, and then see the aftermath later on after the fact. No one here is saying that them having problems in their relationships is a bad thing, but when you treat the two ships with men as just props to talk about yaoi and how "weird" it is and then treat any problems they have with one another really flippantly by just not elaborating further on why it didn't work out, or why they aren't together it can in fact kind of sting.

Especially since the comic doesn't do this for other relationships between the main cast. Like, we get an entire in-depth look at why John and Roxy's marriage fails, but the Epilogues flounders to really explain what happened at all between Dirk and Jake besides vague allusions to infidelity and illegitimate children. And even when the relationship isn't expanded upon as well, like with Roxy and Calliope, it isn't really treated as some kind of way to talk about real-life fandom. Now, this isn't to say that Homestuck is perfect at showing other relationships, it is just pointing out the stark difference in which these relationships were portrayed, and I don't think there's anything really wrong with pointing out that difference.

But anyway, I feel like we're kind of taking away from the original post and not really engaging with it by talking too much about whatever I said T_T

My perspective is that both with regards to how I feel and with regards to my friends perspectives, the moment that Hussie decided to make one of the main drama pieces surrounding Dirk and Dave be their sexualities, they had a duty of care for how they were going to portray them going forward.

At the time when Homestuck was current content, Hussie was assumed as a cis straight guy and described themselves as such, so it was a very surprising turn to have such a thorough depiction of a gay man experiencing internalised hatred but not due to abject disgust.

I can specifically remember growing up and having a moment where a person my age told me that they liked me, but due to my orientation I had to turn them down and they told me that ruined their birthday. It's kind of something I carried with me a lot, its fucked up and I know that I'm not to blame, but it does blindside me that Homestuck captured that feeling with Dirk, the immature internalization.

So, considering especially Dirk has so much of his identity tied up with his sexuality and how that's one more reason for him to loathe himself, I find it a bit homophobic that his role in the Epilogues becomes one of a sexual predator and a coercive force to his family. It's an epithet that gets tacked on to gay men a lot.

It's also why when people discuss Dirk grooming Rose, I have to roll my eyes into the back of my skull. I don't fault people for drawing that conclusion because the story definitely gave supporting arguments, but I don't think its any degree of sound writing to portray a gay man grooming a lesbian, or allude to that dynamic.

And especially after Dirk experiences multiple moments of heterosexuality flaunted in his face to fuel that depression.

As for Jake, his tendency to sleep around feels like it just parodies the promiscuous bisexual trope.

I would be curious to read how sapphic people feel with regards to portrayals of their romantic spectrum. I don't particularly feel that Homestuck does well on that front either, but notably because Homestuck just glosses over it as something to be significant; I'm not aware of a particular moment where a character like Rose or Kanaya have their sexuality become an integral plot point or they have heterosexuality weaponized against them.

Much can be said about Vriska and Terezi too, for example I think Vriska sleeping with Gamzee is just INSANELY and disrespectfully bad writing.

Also sorry for jumping on the usage of yaoi. I just feel it's used in a demeaning way when talking about queer relationships, particularly the usage of the term in Homestuck itself.

Also, as much as it gets recontextualized given Vriska's trans identity, the earlier use of homophobic slurs in the comic is largely indicative to me that Hussie carried some stuff they needed to address.

I don't know if I made sense at all but my main crux is that being gay (for Dirk) and being attracted to men (for Dave) became key parts of their characters arcs and identities. Moreso for Dirk, since his whole self loathing stems from that "original sin" so to speak. And I think that the moment you, as an author, decide to tackle something that heavy, you have a duty to your readership to treat that with respect.

I think similarly for any type of marginalized identity that gets explored in media. If you're going to make a part of someone's marginalized identity a key character point, you can't then turn around and make that character as the most bigoted depiction of their identity. I think it's careless and in this case, I land thoroughly on homophobic. I do feel that there is an element of homophobia STILL present in how Homestuck is written, though the new team that's currently at the mantle is obviously trying to veer away from the pre-written ideas; it's just a shame they're stuck with what came before.

RE: dirk grooming rose

the portrayal is not of a gay man grooming a lesbian, it’s of incestuous abuse (emotional incest, in this case, is very apt). “grooming” doesn‘t just exist in the context of “someone prepares a victim for sex”, and i think making the argument that dirk is an example of the “abusive gay groomer“ stereotype is a simplistic and bad faith representation of the writing in question. incestuous abuse has always been a theme in homestuck, dirk’s abusive tendencies have always been a theme in homestuck, before he was even conceptualized as gay. like, homestuck has always been making commentary about incestuous abuse, i think it’s unfair to say it’s homophobic because, well, most of the human cast is queer.

like, i feel like a lot of the arguments you’re making feel like “gay character does bad thing/bad thing happens to gay character, therefore it’s bad writing and homophobic” without engaging deeper with what homestuck is actually saying.

You're going to have to elaborate in what way you mean "incestuous grooming", considering both of those terms carry sexual connotations AND grooming of their own children is something gay men get accused of A LOT. In fact, the idea that gay men will pressure their children into being queer is something that is also used a lot, and as much as we can argue Davekat is intended, Dirk is literally there in the story, pressuring Dave to have sex with Karkat.

I don't think I have ever heard the term incestuous (especially involving literal family) to not mean sexual? Maybe I'm mistaken, but even Googling doesn't offer some alternative beyond using incestuous to mean close or proximal LIKE family.

I don't think "gay character does something bad" = homophobia. I think that specifically choosing the characters whose sexual orientation has become a focal point of their character arc to turn into homophobic tropes is homophobic.

And I'm sorry, but I think you're offering a lot of good faith to the same author who included a heaping load of slurs in the early comic and didn't really choose to explore one of the protagonists queer identity in any serious capacity until the literal final chapter of the original run.

Dirk's characterization has always existed in contrast of his abusive behavior as Bro. Dirk's identity as gay was a retroactive decision, I don't think Bro being gay was ever a consideration when Hussie first wrote him, but it was added to "subvert" the idea of the dudebro that they had written; without much consideration given to the implications of making a gay man like that.

At the time, I think a lot of people were willing to overlook the implications, because Dirk existed in contrast to what Bro, who was arguably not really fleshed out, was retroactively now representative of. However, given that the epilogues now make Dirk 1:1 with Bro, I don't think I can actually overlook it.

It feels homophobic and I would go as far as to say that it actually is.

Sorry, I mixed my words up, "incestuous abuse" still carries heavy sexual connotations and in this case "Emotional Incest" I cannot begin to even fathom what you mean.

All of these supposed dynamics imply a degree of desire from Dirk towards Rose, which is an insane thing to presume or put in prose given the original comic makes it VERY clear he's gay. (Note, I'm not saying it would make it more accurate or better if Dirk was doing this to Dave, it's still fucking gross to put into writing for a character who before was "messy" but not an outright homophobic depiction.)

We have multiple moments of a gay man getting abused over his sexuality, with basically 0 moments addressing how fucked up it is beyond one discussion with Jane, where Dirk still lays the blame at his OWN FEET. The story doesn't take it any more serious than that and I think that's careless and homophobic.

i clarified in my original reply: emotional incest. it is a psychological phenomenon in which a parent uses a child as an emotional replacement for a partner - using them for emotional support, oversharing details of their life that would be inappropriate for a child to know about their parent, depending on them and often affecting their personal life. a real life example would be stuff like boy moms who are jealous of their sons’ partners, who overexert their influence and rely on their sons for continued emotional support. in homestuck this takes a more fantastical form, but it totally fits the bill of dirk re-emphasising his status as an ectofather (even though this is a pretty fake and nonsensical form of fatherhood even in the original text), and using rose as his emotional crutch.

it’s also important to note grooming is not inherently sexual either. all it actually means is preparing a person for something, and in this context dirk isn’t preparing rose to be in a relationship with him, but rather grooming her into a role he wants her to play in his grander plans. the fact that grooming doesn’t have to be about attraction or sexual desire is even a plot point in the original homestuck - the biggest groomer in homestuck, doc scratch, doesnt even have capacity for sex or sexual attraction. he grooms several young girls, and zero of those instances are sexual.

i think you’re taking the text in bad faith by hyperfocusing on the common colloquial connotations of the specific words. incest and incestuous abuse and grooming have all been themes in the original homestuck, often explored through the lens of heteronormativity, and HSBC is expanding on the theme by specifically deconstructing the topic in the context of a family unit. dirk grooming and abusing rose is not about either of their sexualities, but rather a commentary on the real life dynamic steeped in heteronormativity - the dynamic of fathers ”owning” their daughters, and both the incestuous and abusive parts of that dynamic.

Again, I don't think you're really selling me here on your explanation.

Making Dirk, a gay man, be the stand in for a dynamic of "fathers owning their daughters" is nonsensical. That's an insanely heteronormative concept to apply to Dirk; you're not going to convince me that it's good writing because it alludes to an IRL phenomena regarding straight men.

Additionally, despite Doc Scratch never having the capacity for actual sexual attraction, multiple people discuss the idea of him being a stand in for pedophiles, due to his prediliction for targeting vulnerable young girls.

And to end on the point of Dirk re-emphasizing his position as ecto-father, even that is incoherent to his prior characterization of someone who not only didn't want kids, but thought the idea of him specifically having any was irresponsible. Dirk's desire to NOT be a guardian is meant to reflect how he is antithetical to that dynamic; it's even apparent in the fact that Bro doesn't make Dave consider him a father, but an older brother.

Nothing about Dirk's character or story should have ever gone in the direction of grooming, after Hussie chose to make Dirk's sexuality a key part of his original characterization and arc; I think that is blatantly homophobic to do, but I also recognize that Hussie doesn't think in terms of what might be bigoted perspective and just writes content and deals with consequences later.

And I really don't want to just turn this into hyperfocusing on Dirk and Rose, it's not JUST that, it's also Dirk and the hypersexual narration regarding Dave and Karkat and the sexual abuse he puts Jake through. I think it's homophobic writing.

Despite how Homestuck ended, there was a glimmer of good in the fact Dave gets to ask Dirk advice on how to come out, another perspective not often explored in media, where two siblings who are queer get to aid one another in finding confidence in that identity. That's all thrown to the wayside and all good faith gets lost because of how the Epilogues turn out.

And I think I have to emphasize, I don't think Hussie even realizes they're doing it. I think Hussie just doesn't care.

men owning women is not solely a product of heterosexuality. it is a product of patriarchy, and Dirk is a product of nostalgia for a patriarchal society. to say Dirk can't feel a sense of ownership over his own spawn because he's gay is treading right into "gay men can't be misogynists" territory, which I think we should all be mature enough to acknowledge is simply counterfactual

Well, Dirk, as a character, completely changed in the Epilogues and Beyond Canon without any warning. OP does have a valid point in that there's nothing wrong with Dirk being "problematic" or a villain, but the way he is portrayed and the fact that he is also heavily centered around his identity as a gay man is kind of offensive. Also, I just don't think OP was saying that @JakeMorph.

This is a post about the way they are portrayed, not whether or not how they're portrayed is "realistic" or whatever, and how that portrayal made real gay men feel when reading it. I will say that I do like Dirk as a villain, but I will not deny that there are plenty of examples in the Post Canon material that paint certain characters with a large stereotypical brush that did offend real people who were fans reading it (coughJadecough)

And some of the writing choices for DirkJake and Davekat also leaned into that territory a bit. You are totally fine to still like those aspects of the story, though, and nobody is saying that enjoying these aspects of their character or wanting them to be further explored is bad. Just that it's kind of there, and the OP doesn't really like that aspect of the story.

I also think it is fair to say that it is a bit of "two things are true" here. Yes, Dirk is very much a patriarchal figure, but it is also not lost on me that in his villain, he has forced a sapphic woman out of a relationship and used very lesbophobic language when speaking about her previous marriage (He treats Kanaya and Rose's marriage as inconsequential and meaningless, saying it wasn't going to last, etc. Yes, I know he was saying this just because he needed Kanaya to leave Rose, but it is also just a common phrase men will say to women in gay relationships, saying they're not serious enough or that it doesn't matter is a very common bigoted thing men say about them.) He is also incredibly flippant about her and Terezi being together in any romantic capacity, and yes, there is context within the larger story as a whole to explain all of this away, but it does not really remove the offensiveness for some readers.

In the same way that Homestuck uses slurs in a way to show how other characters may feel about each other, it's valid for someone to be uncomfortable with reading that, and even for them to think that perhaps the comic shouldn't have used them at all.

I don't think you can cite anything from Homestuck that even backs up the argument that Dirk is a product of nostalgia for a patriarchal society.

Half of Dirk's own professed beliefs are antithetical to that very society. The only aspect he's nostalgic for is his perceived older brother. If he was so nostalgic for that society, he'd also have no issue in buying into the patriarchal values of him and Roxy having to have kids. Which he doesn't. He literally pushes back on that idea.

We're talking about the same Dirk who stated that Roxy is the hidden leader of their group, able to acknowledge the personal growth Roxy experienced despite his own personal issues at their hands. We're talking about the same Dirk who's final discussion with Dave was all about deconstructing the toxic irony that hung between them, addressing how he doesn't believe Dave is cool in the way that doesn't matter. I mean it literally ends in one of the most iconic hugs of the comic. That very same discussion where Dave gets to confront a version of his abuser and discusses how he thinks Dirk doesn't even clear the halfway mark to be as bad as Bro.

I genuinely believe the Epilogues have warped a lot of perception regarding his prior character.

And no, nobody is saying gay men can't be misogynistic, I'm saying the Dirk and Rose stuff in conjunction with EVERYTHING else they make Dirk do is homophobic rhetoric.

Also, I just have to add "gay men can be abusive towards their kids" is definitely a story you *can* write. In a story where a character being gay is an incidental part of their identity and not something given major focus for most of his screen time.

I think it was a sloppy decision on Hussie's part to define Dirk as gay, given prior abuse Bro placed Dave through, but I think at the time it was handled with SOME tact because the idea was that Dirk is nothing like Bro, and the parts where they intersect would wind up being the parts that have nothing to do with the abuse. I don't hold that perspective anymore, because now Dirk exists as a repeat of Bro but worse, echoing some very homophobic themes.

okay since we’re veering into the territory of “how real gay men felt when reading about dirk” im gonna throw in my “qualifications“: i am a gay trans man. the reason i‘m mentioning the trans part because dirk being trans is a pretty common headcanon and i feel it does add to his character - i‘m personally fascinated by depictions that examine the way toxic masculinity and misogyny often interplays with queerness and the tension between the two.

dirk’s character has always had this tension - he’s an elaboration on bro, he says himself that every version of him is an extension of himself, they’re always elaborations on each other. and, after all, part of the reason for dave’s internalized homophobia is beta timeline’s dirk‘s upbringing, the toxic masculinity and lack of vulnerability being part of it. dirk has always been at tension between these two aspects of himself, he’s even resistant to being called gay, and while i think his reasoning for it has some validity, i also think he’s philosophising away his resistance to associate with the label and therefore larger cultural ideas of gayness, roxy even reacts to him doing this as if he’s being silly, because he kind of is.

i just feel like we’re projecting some cultural ideas about gay men onto dirk, despite the fact that dirk has always been a somewhat unconventional depiction of a gay man. homestuck proper already makes some commentary on how misogyny and gayness aren‘t entirely contrary ideas: caliborn‘s misogyny concludes with him becoming obsessed with “yaoi” etc.

the epilogues are all about ramping up the deeper internalizations the characters have to lay them bare and examine them, and i feel like we’re giving dirk too much credit and disregarding a lot of his internalized bullshit just because we have certain cultural ideas about gay men and by extension gay characters.

I would argue that Dirk is a very conventional depiction of a gay man. His experiences are VERY in line with the self loathing a gay man feels when he suppresses himself for the sake of other people's happiness.

I live in a very conservative part of the world that only just legalised gay marriage and still hasn't legalised gay adoption. Dirk's issues with homosexuality are not that he has an issue with people being gay, but rather that he has an issue with the fact HE is gay. He never externalizes that issue to other men.

It's a very relatable experience and I'd go as far as to say any gay man who grows up with a desire for community but stuck in a part of the world disconnected from the safety net of vocal pride can understand that isolation; it isn't unconventional. I recognised parts of my own identity from when I was like, 10. I didn't experience outward homophobia, I experienced a LOT of internalised misery.

And I'm going to be real, I do not think Hussie ever really researched any of this to write out these depictions. I think it was all accidental or retroactive based on the fan space discussing these things.

I similarly don't think having Dirk be transphobic towards Roxy makes any sense, the guy was willing to let Roxy walk all over him and his identity for the simple fact he believes Roxy is better than him, he grew up beyond the social ideals of the former world and can accept aliens exist and even accept that Callie and Caliborn share a body. I do not for one minute buy the transphobia, it's another aspect tacked on because he needs more "villainous behavior credit."

As for Caliborn and his misogyny leading into his obsession with yaoi, that's exactly the kind of critique I'm talking about.

Hussie writes the idea of a misogynist being so embedded in his beliefs that he warps back around to being ironically gay. It's not presented as a critique of gay men, its presented as "haha isn't it so funny and ironic the misogynist is gay." Because Caliborn doesn't even recognise it, he is oblivious to how he comes across and the audience is primed to laugh AT his behavior.

To me, in that case, it reads more like Hussie finds it funny to "meta" dunk on Caliborn by making him be cringe, act like a petulant baby at times and ironically "like yaoiz".

Just the simple fact alone that Caliborn calls it yaoiz is indicative to me that Hussie is using it as a "Caliborn is cringe, laugh at him for this ironic twist of fate" and not "Caliborn is actually a gay man and has a lot of misogyny to unpack."

Also, sorry for a third response but I'm firing off as these thoughts form. I do think Dirk being read as a gay trans man is a valuable perspective, but I do not believe Hussie ever made that an intentional part of his character when he first wrote him.

Dirk's focus on his sexual identity is a big part of his character and I would like to believe that if Hussie was truly going to write a trans character from the jump, that part of his identity would also be given equal focus with regards to how he fits into the story.

That being said, I still don't believe it negates much of what was said. Whether or not Dirk is trans, I still think this is a bigoted depiction of a gay man. Trans people also get the groomer/sexually abusive towards their children and other queer people cudgel tossed their way.

We can have discussions all day about misogyny and examining how it unfolds in Homestuck, but we can also do that without bastardizing what was otherwise a rather decent depiction of a gay man. Dirk didn't need to exact sexual violence on his family and his ex boyfriend; that was just done to add more "drama" and showcase how EEEEEVIL he is as an author.

My eyes kind of glazed over after "the author's reaction to the fandom probably shaped Dave's character development more than the author." There's this argument of intent that I have exclusively seen get thrown at Hussie in order to... partially discredit her writing? It's mostly used to withhold giving props for things like writing a realistic depiction of a repressed bisexual. But it's not even this specific use of the argument that's ridiculous as much as the form of argument itself. The authorial intent is on the page. If we as the audience are supposed to look at 2009 Homestuck separately from 2015 Homestuck, they'd be different works.

Also Dirk has never not been a creep. It's like the flaw he's the least concerned with. He draws porn of his friends while Caliborn is getting off to it.