Racial: When all black homestucks hang their heads in shame bc of the voice actors

also re: siofra, the idea that well off white people can't write black people or can't reconceptualize their ocs as black is ??? I have a very similar background to hussie and I am 100% capable of writing about black people. Do I understand all of their experiences? No. But I am perfectly capable of talking to black people, watching/reading/listening to media by black people, and taking advice from black writers if I need a different perspective. If worse comes to worst, Hussie can hire additional black writers to help write the show if they're soooooooo incapable of writing a diverse cast, which I don't think they are.

@bluebootyraider
That's very much my point though. I think "let Dave be black" should mean more than just casting a black person to play him. People keep bringing up Roxy's hair as a good example of representation so I feel like there's some agreement that the "aracial" thing is a cheap copout, right? Hair is disambiguating detail. So why not literally make Dave black?

Which is rather the point I was making when I stressed that this was an official piece of Homestuck media. Like, Roxy's hair is a big deal because its in Friendsim, no? It's not just good fun and interpretations when the official Homestuck animated pilot is glossing over the whole *waves hand around* race thing. Hussie decided that his characters were white in 2009, but now this new Homestuck thing exists and it doesn't seem too enthused about changing that for the fans who want it.

@anthy
And again you're being very nonspecific. What am I doubling down on? That they should do more to improve Homestuck's representation? If I could edit posts I would, since the only thing you've called out specifically is the phrase "devil's advocate". Sorry for misusing an idiom I guess?

@bluebootyraider
I was replying to your post before that so let me just say this. I really don't want to argue about whether Hussie is or isn't good at writing people who aren't demographically similar to him. I don't think he has a good track record for it. I do think good representation ideally comes from, at the very least, someone who has a greater degree of empathy and some kind of worldly experience with people outside of their ingroups. At that point, I'm speculating about Hussie's private life, and not my experience with his art. There's every possibility the other credited writer is more competent at this.

i mean you're so focused on condemning hussie that you're saying things like "dave is archetypically white" and "would you relate to a black character written by andrew hussie?" as if black homestuck fans don't relate to white characters by hussie? is that not why we're having this whole conversation??? because black fans like homestuck???

youve got people coming to you like "i know black people who are just like dave strider" and you're like "um...ACTUALLY, the difference is very subtle but you'll see the main distinction between those black people (who i haven't met) and dave strider is that dave strider is white"

of course people are going to side-eye you. i don't think you're trying to be racist, i just think that in your anti-hussie quest, you don't have enough self-awareness for the way you're coming across. why is it that when when a person is trying to suggest ways they could feel more represented, your response is to try and tell them how to feel and what is and isn't good enough for them? is hating an author so important that you're gonna speak over the groups you're supposedly trying to advocate for?

@siofra

i just do not know how to tell you that you're playing devil's advocate against racial minorities in the fanbase by completely missing the point of everything they're saying and why it matters. this is starting to reflect as a general habit of you joining threads with contrary opinions (fine), and then getting confused when everyone else has to stop the conversation about the actual thread topic to debate you about something that you don't seem to either understand or care to listen to (not great).

i truly just don't understand how you're confused about everyone getting mad at you for saying that they shouldn't care about racial diversity in a piece of media that has been pretty vocal about viewer interpretation. even in a world where you're right to be Aloof and Cool and Not Really Care about this, it's a dick move, and no one here needs to hold your hand about it. please either bow out of the conversation or try to talk about this in a way that doesn't come from a position of treating everyone else like they're stupid for giving a shit. this is your warning. please heed it.

I can't help but feel like there's a chasm of difference between what I'm saying and how some people in this thread are interpreting me. Like, I've been able to have a pretty amicable back and forth with the OP of the thread, though its being buried by a lot of reactionary replies that aren't really engaging with the meat of my posts, and rather hyperfixating on a poorly worded sentence, or a bit of dramatic language.

I'll concede that maybe some of my posts have come off as aloof. Not because I don't care, I do. I guess I was trying to be careful about what I said because I don't think this forum is terribly receptive about criticism levied towards Hussie. I had to clarify that, which resulted in me being more explicitly critical of Hussie, which I don't believe has done me any favours (just look at the post above you). At no point, however, did I say that people shouldn't care about racial diversity in the comic, and I've made several posts at this point reiterating my stance on the subject. I find it hard to understand how you simultaneously believe I'm extremely aloof and SCOFF at people who care about the issue, while another user believes I'm so impassioned that I've lost all self awareness.

I'll also take this opportunity to bitch about the "habit" you've imposed onto me. I'm sorry... what is that based on?? I haven't received warnings about this in the past and I barely contribute to general discourse threads. Either you're mistaking me for someone else or this is an attempt to make me look as unreasonable as possible.

@bluebootyraider
Is it possible that I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone and my feelings about representation in Homestuck are entirely my own? I'm not some kind of belligerent hater, I love plenty of things Hussie has made. One of my few topics on this very forum is an appreciation thread for some of his lesser known stuff. I have a lot of respect for him as an artist, but I don't think he's ever been good at representation. Whether people have been able to relate to his characters despite this is irrelevant I think, because that's a totally different conversation from representation, and the fandom's ability to interpret his characters how they like really says more about what they're able to take away from Homestuck than what Hussie has put into it. I really don't think Homestuck should get points for that, especially as it continues to contradict its own "racial ambiguity" shtick with this pilot. Like I said earlier, people will relate to the characters of the pilot regardless of who voices them. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a more diverse cast, or that effort shouldn't be put into creating better representation in other ways.

First of all: It's actually really funny you say that pointing out your "poorly worded" sentences and "dramatic language" is me being "reactionary." Because "reactionary" isn't at all synonymous with "reactive," it actually means opposing political or social reform. Which is exactly what you're doing here. Of course you're framing it under the guise of "that's just what hussie meant!" when even hussie themselves has gone and said that "it's just as valid to interpret the kids as belonging to any other race, considering their depictions are abstract to the point that sometimes they don't have things like arms." And no one here means to give Hussie points of writing "unintentionally diverse" characters.

The nature of Homestuck NECESSITATES a semiotic based analysis. You can not talk about Homestuck without referring entirely to abstracted symbols, because of the heavily stylized and sprited format. Hussie themselves talks about them AT LENGTH throughout their writer's commentary on the comic, and the importance of analyzing what is Presented versus what is Not. If you want to insert yourself into this discussion, you can NOT be upset when people take issue with "poorly worded" or "dramatic" sentences where you just end up sounding racist. If you want to get into the tricky topic, then you should really think twice about what you're saying, and whether the arguments you make have a very specific, implicit worldview.

You come in with the whole premise that they are "archetypically white." that is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than a character being written by a white person in a white area with absolutely no intention of writing race (and multiple times deliberately editing the comic when someone points out something is being interpreted as being confirmation of whiteness). You compare Dave Strider, an exclusively symbolically depicted character, as being the equivalent as a real life white person of Chandler Bing (which also completely ignores the LENGTHY precedence of "race-blind" casting/recasting in live-action adaptations! Off the top of my head the Percy Jackson show, who specified that they wanted to have a more diverse main lineup to deliberately undermine people that focused on characters being "the right race," and you can easily look up more because there are always people complaining about them).

Even from your initial statement of "I think it's a little misguided to assume that the characters themselves would be inherently more black or something if they were voiced by a black VA" is a complete misunderstanding of Spicy's meaning. No one has ever claimed what you said. People wanted Black VAs (or even just more nonwhite VAs) because just like you say about this "not [being] an argument for authorial intent, its just the reality of what these characters are" (as if the character has a platonic True Character that Is White, and nonwhite depictions are fun but can Never be serious canon if they aren't Caucasian - if there is a True Character, then it exists entirely within the semiotic stylization of Homestuck and cannot be translated into any less abstracted formats) - people are used to being in complete comfort about whiteness as default and having "evidence" for it, so why wouldn't people want something that contradicts it?

You are not alone in this, but seeing people say "not to play devil's advocate" or "maybe I shouldn't be saying this" or other qualifiers because they have just a sliiiiight inkling that this is Not the place, and/or they don't know what they're talking about is frustrating because... yeah you should have just kept that to yourself then. Starting with something like that isn't a card that let's you say whatever you want afterwards.

Like, Spicy is picking out points you make (because yes, nonwhite depictions ARE done in spite of writing quality but they are ALSO in spite of a white-centric fandom, that feels the need to enforce the "original meaning" (that THEY are assuming) and white hegemony and cultural default) from the paragraphs of BS as "evidence" you're saying to try to lead back into what he was ACTUALLY talking about and you're not even taking the hint. Like when you say "Hussie's non-commitment to "racial ambiguity" fold[s] in the face of what is necessarily a less ambiguous medium" - yes! This is true! That's what people are disappointed about! But then you keep making statements and arguments that are based in a white hegemonic worldview, are just plain inaccurate/not relevant, and are actually kind of gross.

Yeah, I personally have no objection to discussing Hussie's racism or discussing the "whiteness as default" inherent to white people doing aracial characters. It does bother me when it feels like that is being used to tell black fans that they actually can't expect anything better