Serious Discord Conerns (18+ subjects mentioned due to context)

@Elegant an issue with that is if we have an #NSFW channel, it'll be a nightmare to moderate, and NSFW channels in huge servers NEVER end well in my experience. we highly recommend intense/tricky discussions other places. like the forum here (you can even link to FRAF threads in the discord :)). the discord is for a general sort of "public space," not a private one. it's going to be limited there.

The issue with having "forums/threads only" is that they also are harder to manage, and honestly even though it's hellish it IS easier to know that gen 1 is a problem, but elsewhere is safer. if we restrict gen 1 the problems are going to almost evenly distribute to other channels, and we have to do more hunting.

overall I do want to say again that we're almost done finalizing an internal system so this shit does Not happen again. i think this is the worst it'll ever get while we go from 0-7k children running around in under 24 hours (and agitators dragged in from twitter posts) and we're definitely not going to let it get that hairy again.

About the puritan aspect of this one harassment campaign. It's, sadly, just the usual 4chan style slander, and it's also reactionary discourse, it's the same kind of vibes than "Pedro Pascal is weird, he likes to hug women".

P3dojacketing, to falsely label someone as a p3docriminal through rumours and often fabricated evidence, is the oldest trick in the f4scist playbook.

It's RELENTLESSLY used for systemic and institutional oppression against queer people all over the world (see the USA), it's used to forbid drag shows and lectures, it's used to harass all kinds of non-p3do porn and queer artists, it's used to destroy sex education, it's used to destroy any knowledge of these kinds of matters by kids (so, in a sad sense, p3dojacketing is used to facilitate and cover p3docriminality), it's used to forbid porn, it's used to establish systems of identity control (see the dystopian drift happening in the UK and part of the European union), etc etc.

PORN ARTISTS ARE NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS. To draw or to consume porn is a normal human activity.

The transmisogyny facet of it all has been covered enough above, I think. But it must be highlighted, it is indissociable of the entire problematic here. P3dojacketing trans women in particular is the DEFAULT MOVE in the allo-dya-cis-het patriarchal system of domination since decades.

NGL stuff like this has had me crashing out and contemplating getting revenge on the fascists, I've even told people to either mass block or find the people responsible for this. This is also coming from someone who has been called a p3do sympathizer on Discord for saying something along the lines of people should write whatever they want in fiction.

I just want this stuff done quickly.

UPD8! THIS IS HUGE & BAD!

To clarify (forgot to type this part), I'm sincerely happy she has powerful people in her corner, but I'm pretty damn worried for any of the rest of us who don't!

well! ain’t that something to say the least. I was hoping it would just be like a newer mod making a big oopsie but that’s not great. Bet things are real chaotic behind the scenes right now :X stay strong pals u know u are in the right!! heres hoping something can be done

if I'M feeling overwhelmed by all the homestuck stuff lately, the mod team must be shedding years due to the stress of juggling all of this

Okay, look. Everybody is on edge. Let's all... Breathe, for a sec.

The mods are all on the side of the artist. They have publicly supported her. The server has been on for four days, and it has been utterly overwhelming to use, let alone moderate.

I still hold all opinions I expressed previously. I also think there is a clear attempt to correct the pointed mistake. And let us all remember, also, the victim of all this should have the say on what kind of reparations she wants, not us observers, even if yes, it does set a precedent for the treatment of all of us, trans women.

The modteam has been very transparent about their own opinions, and I believe the omissions have more to do with wanting to avoid a larger fire while they try to put it out. Let's all just give them a little while to get stuff sorted. While, yes, this is all a terrible mess and I'll definitely be staying away from the server rn, the mods have earned a lot of good will, I think.

Good luck to all involved.

@rosebot I'm going to be honest that i'm kind of surprised that this is whats being said, but this is also... kind of not entirely true? like we actually, genuinely had a discussion about options in the mod chat.

no one on the mod team was threatening to riot or resign. everyone shared their opinion, but we didn't know what would work best for pav, which is why pav was given multiple options so SHE could choose from. i can understand her being upset at one of the options, but that's why she didn't have to choose it. she was told it would be temporary, and that we were working on it, and were fighting the harassment. we've been fighting harassment for multiple people who aren't "as powerful as her" too.

I honestly don't think it was even paradox's original idea. also, paradox isn't the head mod. :|

actually, edit to my last post for transparency because im looking back through logs now - someone did say that they would leave the mod team if she was kicked (which again, she wasn't and honestly never really was in danger of being kicked if she didn't want to leave). honestly, PERSONALLY? I didn't even say it during the discussion but if the whole thing had gone badly even I would have thought about leaving, but mostly because it would mean that lower tier mods didn't get a say in larger decisions that effected them. but everyone was listened to, and honestly the admin team has been really good about making sure people get to talk tricky things out (especially with mobs making claims about mods). The mod team was overwhelmingly on her side. it was not a high up mod saying that we were going to kick her and then everyone rising up. it was a discussion, and we all agreed on not kicking her, and trying to work with her since she'd been dealing with this for a while. idk.

IDK if im allowed to agree with Margot here LOL but I do appreciate it. it's been rough but we've been trying to communicate with all parties and make sure we're setting up systems to deal with crazy shit like this easier.

to elaborate on my stress comment, basically I just mean to say it is no surprise that something happened immediately and i think like. i more or less said as much yesterday but. obviously shit needs to be done to get to this point, but i am fairly certain we will get to a point where things are fine and this was dealt with cleanly and in a way that is good and hurrah for trans women. i guess i'm saying not that the ends justify the means but that the ends justify the being patient?

it is a scary situation because being trans online is scary, but we've been given good reason to believe things will work out and so I think there's not much use in worrying about it as people with no direct influence on the outcome. again, obviously the mods have to worry about it and i do not fucking envy their position, but. it's out of our hands and the hands it's in seem to have it in them to make it to the good end of this whole affair

really fucking rambly, i'm working on like three hours of sleep so sorry if that made no sense

Ok look, alexis, and other discord mods, I love y'all. But please don't make precipitated defensive posts that y'all cannot delete or edit (as of yet lol).

Also like. And this goes to everyone. Please actually read the posts y'all are responding to. Don't assume things, and at the same time, don't be pedantic. Don't accuse people of being under NDAs so we can make one guy the scapegoat of all this situation, and don't act like asking a trans woman to leave becuz she is being harassed is a neutral thing and just one of many options without any sinister implications intended or not.

I mean this with all the calm and comprehension I can muster. Put out the fire first, then we can talk about who started it.

The tricky thing here is that it seems that the general public has already determined that artist (are we allowed to say her name already?) as their enemy so for as long as she's in the server there will be posts calling that out as a bad thing, which doesn't go well with all the drama surrounding Homestuck that's been going on lately.

I think one solution could be for the mods to put out some statement addressing the allegations towards the artist for the sake of clearing misinformation, which I don't think is a wrong move as her presence clearly has an impact on people's perspective on the server. But idk if the mods are really willing to do something like that and I'd understand if not.

As much as I don't see a problem with her being in the server, I do understand the idea of wanting to remove a malicious person from a server if it gives the server a negative impact, but in this case if the mods believe she isn't malicious (and I agree with them on that) then they should try to defend her publicly, too.

By the way nsfw channels in public servers are awful please never do that to your servers unless they're about nsfw topics.

thank u Margot for your knowledge and wisdom from beyond (?) the e-grave (@-@)b

RE: @autumnwyvern

They [mental illness] tried to kill me [self-isolate] but little did they know I would God Tier [calm down]

homestuck discord making me wish i could fire emote margot's post lol

I'm eating now and took a nice hot shower, I'm more calm then when I was not fully awake. I'll respond to Margot and others later. Thank you all for the replies in this and no, I don't think we should name whom we're discussing at this time.

I am just going to note that while I agree people shouldn't be named, one can easily see who made the posts by typing even a sentence of them into google.

worries for those who don't have connections are totally right to have, but i want to reassure everyone that having gone through the fire now, having plans and tools in place is going to make sure you don't need those to get a fair shake. there are plenty of transfeminine and/or transfeminist mods on the team. the people who aren't used to the bullshit homestuck fans throw at each other are learning, and the team is full of people i trust to protect trans women, and this includes paradox! i didn't know paradox personally when this server started, but in our interactions, he's been completely receptive to everything we've thrown his way.

and in general, i understand being freaked out about this, i really do. the history of the homestuck community's ability to stand for trans women is, at best, fraught, and at worst, utter failure. this decision was made in the wake of other decisions that i would have liked to see handled another way that hangs heavy in the air, and i don't want to see it become a pattern. again, smoking craters where trans women used to be. i also get that there's a lot of fear of things being opaque going around right now. i haven't signed any NDAs regarding the HSO server. i signed one for FRAF and that's it. i'm bringing you the truth, as i understand it.

i also want to stress that decisions like this are made as a group, no matter what. yes, i was asked to ask, but i also could have said no. it's not a matter of "i was told to by the boss", it's "i wanted to figure out a resolution that keeps the people i care about out of the fire, and it was a potential resolution". this happens a lot more than is shown to the public, where a lot of good, okay, and bad ideas are thrown around and thrown away in search of the right one. that's just the nature of working with others. it happens in writer's rooms, it happens in board meetings, it happens in mod channels.

similarly, i knew the artist (god it is weird talking around her. sorry queen) was getting more or less gangstalked, but, well. it's kind of like "show, don't tell". i had been told this by the user herself, but being shown its extent is a completely different thing from being told. from a remove, the right answer was always there. but this is the outside observer's perspective. it's easier to choke and get caught up in stuff in the way of the right answer when you're in the thick of it.

and just on a personal level, i would personally like some patience and trust, and thank you to others for sticking up for this. i've held on to this moderation role much tighter and for much longer than i expected to, because like. the history of trans women in fandom is one that is always precarious. i had expected the forums to be at about the activity level they are now (nice and slow, high-effort and niche. love you guys.) to be the most community managing i'd be doing. i knew the discord was going to exist at all about 4 days before it did. as it approaches 10,000 users, it is the largest community i've had any moderation capacity in by four orders of magnitude.

the new thing i've learned is that discord's built-in tools for handling harassment like this are fucking terrible. like, holy shit. we have automods set up with big and obvious word filters, we have mod reports, we're working on a ticketing system, but that's obviously not enough, and while margot suggested the "wait before sending a message" timer, it would be nice. but it doesn't work. like, at all. did you know that if you have a verified phone, that timer doesn't work? like, at all? it's frustrating. we have people with experience moderating big discords like this coming in and they're suggesting bot suites, so the tools should be better in the future.

I’ve been on the receiving end of a particularly terrible discord automod where I was kicked from a server I had been in for a very very long time because I was SO exited about an art toy find in my comic shop’s loose figures area. A Giraffagon by Amanda Visell. you know a giraffe dragon. The tiny toy one not the giant wood one. It was resolved pretty quickly I’m still in there talking toys n collectibles with my pals. but if anyone needed an example of how Absurd some of these mod tools can be uh. there u go

(also glad to hear you are doing better margot 🥺)